Additional Comments About Forgiveness
Rick Garlikov

When I first wrote about forgiveness, it seemed obvious to me that it required the wrongdoer to do something to make up in some way for the harm and damage s/he caused, physical, emotional, and any other psychological harm or damage, such as perhaps what is labeled "pain and suffering" in civil lawsuits.  But I have since learned it is a fairly common view that forgiveness is more dependent in some way on the victim of the wrongdoing either as some sort of duty, such as a supposed Christian one, or as a psychological prescription in order for them to "move on" past their anger and malevolent feelings toward the perpetrator who wronged them and be able to attain some sort of peace to get over what happened and get on with their lives in a happier and more productive way.

I believe that common view is misguided for two reasons: 1) it confuses the potential psychology of forgiveness with the ethics of it, and 2) it gets the psychology backwards.  It gets it backwards because it mistakes a potential effect or accompaniment to forgiveness with its cause or constitution, when in fact it is the wrongdoer's acts which make him or her deserve forgiveness be the very acts which also help the victim heal.  If the wrongdoer has genuine remorse and regret for his/her wrong, does what s/he can to undo the harm and damage caused, including showing genuine respect and concern for the well-being of the victim whom s/he clearly disrespected and didn't care about when doing the wrong, and makes a concerted, genuine effort not to repeat the wrong to the victim or anyone else, that should help (or even suffice) to heal the victim from raging or continuing to rage against the wrongdoer.  It is not that one forgives in order to heal nor that one has forgiven by healing, but that the wrongdoer's atonement makes forgiveness deserved, justified,  necessary, and possible, while at the same time providing the balm for recovery and healing.  And a significant part of the atonement and restitution for the wrongdoing is establishing respect in the place of the disrespect for the victim, given that I argue that disrespect is often the major underlying sin, offense, or transgression of any wrongdoing.

And it confuses the psychology of forgiveness with the ethics of it because if the perpetrator continues on his/her same path of wrongdoing and rejoicing in it, only ruing being caught and punished, not regretting having done wrong to deserve punishment, then the victim's potential recovery, say, through therapy, work, taking up marathon running or golf in order to replace his/her suffering and anger a goal or purpose (which many would associate with a different, merely distracting, form of suffering and frustration, particularly in the case of golf which is a triumph of hope over experience), is simply healing, not "forgiving".  Just as one can heal from a physical wound without being medically treated, one can heal from an emotional wound without having treatment too.  The healing or recovery by itself is not a sign of having been properly treated.  In the case of harm from wrongdoing, self-recovery, self-healing, and even therapeutic and emotional help from others is not sufficient to justify or even allow forgiveness of the wrongdoer.  If the perpetrator of the wrong is not remorseful and not sincerely and genuinely apologetic, doesn't care about restitution or any sort of atonement or reform of his/her ways, forgiveness is neither justified nor possible because any dismissal of the perpetrator's wrong by the victim is simply ignoring the perpetrator's act, not forgiving it.

And clearly the principle of "no harm, no foul" does not apply either to physical or emotional injury.  The perpetrator doesn't have a legitimate defense in saying "You healed after your surgery from the bullets I shot you with, and you obviously have had a good and happy marriage, family, and career since then, so why are you still blaming me for what I did to you?  You recovered quite well, and have prospered even more than I have, so get over it and forgive me.  You should have done that long ago in fact once things started going well for you."

Forgiving is about genuinely believing and feeling that the perpetrator has done enough to make up for his/her inexcusable wrong that they do not deserve (further) punishment for having done it.  One can still hate the wrong was done and even hate the person that the wrongdoer "was" when s/he committed it, but not hate the changed version of the perpetrator who is no longer like that person morally although they are the same physical person or same person "identity-wise".  For that to happen, the wrongdoer must meet the four requirements for deserving forgiveness, or at least meet them as much as is possible, which, of course, is more difficult when restitution cannot be made, such as in murder, but where perhaps someone sacrifices much of personal value to save the lives of others in order to atone as much as possible for the life one took.

It may be helpful to consider the concept of "forgiveness" in juxtaposition with "justification" and "excuse":
1) Justification shows the reasons for why an act is right.

2) An excuse shows the reasons a person who committed a wrong act is not at fault for it and shouldn't be punished or blamed for it.  For example if you miss a meeting you were never informed about and had no reason to inquire about or suspect might be being held or scheduled.  Or one is not to be blamed nor punished for not stopping at an intersection one was not familiar with where a stop sign was totally hidden by a tree limb or had been stolen by vandals.  Those things do not make missing the meeting nor failing to stop at the intersection right, but they absolve the person of responsibility and blame for having done the wrong thing.
I argue that in Luke 23:34, where Jesus says "Forgive them father for they know not what they do", that would be better translated and understood as "Excuse them, Father for they know not what they do".  And Google AI confirms that it is possible to translate "excuse them" rather than "forgive them" because the original Greek word, aphiēmi, can have meanings related to "let go" or "send away," and some scholars argue that in the context of Jesus' statement that the executioners "know not what they do," "excuse them" is a more accurate nuance. This interpretation suggests Jesus is asking the Father not to hold their actions against them due to their ignorance, which is distinct from a full "forgiveness" that implies a more complete sense of culpability.
3) Forgiveness is about what is necessary for someone who has done an inexcusably wrong (unjustified, unjustifiable) act, after having committed the act, to make
punishment undeserved and unnecessary or no longer further deserved or necessary -- apart from and totally separate from having merely served a punishment deemed sufficient in some way.  Whatever the justification for punishment for a wrong is, it is not necessarily relevant to forgiveness in that a person who served his/her sentence may not be remorseful, may not care about the people they harmed or the lives they damaged or ruined, or doing anything to make up for it.  Suppose, for example, a wealthy person speeds through a residential neighborhood in his Lamborghini, risking killing children and is caught and fined some amount that is basically just chump-change to him or her, and takes it as a licensing fee for having done it and being able to do it again for an additional very affordable fee that is worth the thrill of speeding to him or her.  That is someone who does not deserve forgiveness.  It is also someone who was not sufficiently fairly punished, but that is a different matter, particularly if punishment is intended to be merely punitive or penalizing and not necessarily reformative.
In short, while psychologically and emotionally recovering and healing from a wrong done to you is important, and can often best result from the wrongdoer's regret, remorse, sincere apology, voluntary restitution, and genuine and sincere attempt to reform his/her behavior, such healing and recovery does not itself constitute forgiveness nor does the pursuit of healing justify or constitute forgiveness.  It at most constitutes ignoring the wrong and the wrongdoer.  Of course, it may be necessary and justified to ignore the wrongdoer and wrong that was done to you if that is the only way you can move on (and the wrongdoer is not in any way repentant), but emotional and psychological healing or recovery from a harm inexcusably done to you is not necessarily forgiveness for it any more than is healing and recovery from an intentional physical injury forgiveness from a violent physical attack or aggravated battery.

Further explanation:

Causal Responsibility for an Act
A) You are causally responsible for an act you intentionally or negligently did (whether the act is right or wrong), if and only if

1) you could have done otherwise had you chosen to and
2) you could have chosen to

Causal Responsibility for an Omission or Failure to Act
B) You are causally responsible for not having done, or for failing to do, an act you intentionally or negligently didn’t do (whether the omission is right or wrong), if and only if

3) you could have done the act had you chosen to and
4) you could have chosen to

The following all refer to acts or omissions for which one is causally responsible.

Blameworthiness for a Wrong Act You Did
C) If the act you did was wrong, then you are blameworthy for having done it, if and only if

5) you knew it was wrong or
6) (in cases of negligent ignorance) you should have known it was wrong, and
7) you had no reasonable excuse or legitimately mitigating reason for doing it

[The “and” in 6 goes with either 5 or 6, meaning that if and only if 7 is true and either 5 or 6 is true, then you are blameworthy for the act you did.]

Blameworthiness for a Wrongful Omission or Failure to Act*
D) If the act you did not do is one that you should have done (i.e., if it was wrong for you not to have done or to have failed to do), then you are blameworthy for not having done it (i.e., for failing to do it), if and only if

8) you knew it was wrong not to do it or
9) (in cases of negligent ignorance) you should have known it was wrong not to do it, and
10) you had no excuse or mitigating reason for not doing it.

[The “and” in 9 goes with either 8 or 9, meaning that if and only if 10 is true and either 8 or 9 is true, then you are blameworthy for not doing the act or for failing to do the act.]

* ”Failing to do an act” is potentially ambiguous in that it can refer to ‘a failure to attempt to do the act’ or to ‘an unsuccessful attempt to do the act, doing it in a way that fails to achieve the intended result or complete the act.’  Certainly one is blameworthy for failure even to attempt to do a right act, but one is also blameworthy for failing to succeed if that failure is one’s own fault in some way too, as in making a half-hearted or not particularly reasonable effort.  It is not a “failure to act,” if one’s serious attempt is thwarted by something fully outside of one’s control, but then also one is not then responsible for any such act of omission.  So ‘failing to act’ in these cases of omissions mean basically not doing something one should have done or at least seriously attempted to do with a reasonable expectation and chance of success.

Punishment**
E) You should be punished for a wrong act you are blameworthy for having done or blameworthy for having failed/omitted to do, unless you deserve forgiveness.

** I believe that the main points of punishment are (or should be) 1) to restore the balance insofar as possible between deserved moral good and moral evil and/or between undeserved moral good and moral evil in the universe, so that those who are blameworthy for moral wrongs they have done do not benefit from them, particularly not being able to have the benefits they have taken from others in a way that prevents the people who deserve them from being able to have, or continue having, them and 2) to distribute in as fair and reasonable way as possible the burdens caused by wrongdoing, so that wrongdoers have to endure their fair and reasonable share of the costs and/or other suffering and harms they cause to innocent people and to decent society in general.  [For my current, but still evolving, views about the justification of punishment see my essays "Justification of Punishment" and "Undeserved Good and Deserved Harm: A Problem with My 'Justification of Punishment'".  But for my purposes here, I think my points about punishment will be clear enough without the details in those two essays.]

Justifying an act means explaining what makes it right, and an act is justified if and only if it was a right act to do.  There may be more than one right act for some situations, even if they conflict with each other, in that there may be more than one way to achieve the same or equally good results in equally fair and just ways, (and whatever other criteria are involved in determining what makes acts right).  For example, what order you run a set of errands in may not matter, though, of course you cannot run them in different orders at the same time, so whichever sequence you choose prevents you from doing one of the other sequences.

Excusing an act means legitimately holding why even though someone did a wrong act for which they are causally responsible, s/he is not blameworthy for having done it and does not deserve to be punished.  They are not at fault for having done it.  For example, if you miss a meeting you were never told about and had no reason to know or expect was occurring, you are not to be blamed or punished for it, even though it was still wrong, or at least not right, to miss the meeting.  Similarly if a stop sign is hidden from view by leafy trees, it is not your fault if you do not stop, but that doesn't make it right to have gone through the intersection without stopping.  An act is excusable if it is wrong, but the person who did it is not blameworthy and should not be punished.  [The legality of all this does not necessarily conform to the morality of it.  For example, if while you are stopped behind a line of traffic, your car is hit from behind with enough force to push it forward into the vehicle ahead of you, damaging it, in some cases you are legally liable for the damage done to the car in front even though you are not morally causally responsible for it or morally blameworthy.]

At this point, I need to make a distinction between punishment for culpable wrongdoing, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, harming someone out of self-defense or in defense of other innocent people.  We, for example, put down (i.e., execute) rabid animals in order to protect people from them, even though we do not believe it is the animal's fault that it is rabid and dangerous.  The killing of the animal is certainly a harm to it, but it is not a "punishment" for something it did, especially if it has not actually attacked anyone yet.  If we quarantine someone with a dangerous contagious disease or if we institutionalize someone psychotic in a restrictive facility because s/he is extremely dangerous and a constant threat to others, that is a protective measure for society, not a punishment for a willfully or freely voluntarily committed crime or wrong by someone fully capable of choosing not to have done it.  We can believe people are extremely dangerous and take protective measures that limit their freedom and that even cause them to suffer, before they have actually done something that merits incarceration or harm as a punishment. 
Forgiving someone means holding them not deserving of any (further) punishment, although they did something which was inexcusably wrong.  Normally one holds them not deserving of (further) punishment because they have done something since (or possibly even before) doing the wrong act that makes up for the wrong they did and the harm they have caused; they have in some way 'atoned for' their wrong doing, and where their suffering is warranted as a penalty for the wrong act they did, they have also suffered enough.  This typically involves doing, in some fashion or other, all four of the following where all four are possible:

11) feeling genuine remorse
12) sincerely and honestly expressing your regret and remorse to the victim(s) of your act or omission [i.e., giving a sincere apology to the victim(s)]
13) making restitution for all the harm and work (and lost beneficial opportunities) you caused by your act or omission (including any ‘opportunity costs’ incurred by those involved in catching you if you had to be caught)
14) making a serious and sustained effort to rehabilitate yourself so that you do not commit the wrong again.

In cases, such as murder or permanent injury where 12 and 13 are not possible, one might still deserve forgiveness if one has, without coercion, bargaining or in any other form of merely trying to avoid (further) punishment, done something to make up for one’s wrongdoing as much as possible by a serious, strenuous, and sustained effort to help others in a way one would not have done had one not done (or failed to do) the act and been remorseful for doing (or failing to do) it. I believe that forgiving someone for a blameworthy act -- i.e., a wrong act for which they have no justified excuse -- means believing they no longer deserve (further) externally inflicted punishment (as opposed to suffering from their own conscience) because they have done something sufficient to atone for the act for which they are blameworthy.  Part of what is sufficient atonement involves repentance, and in some cases voluntary sacrifice or risk of sacrifice of something important to the wrongdoer.  I will say more about that later.

Some people, however, believe that "the Christian thing to do" is forgive all people of their wrongs, but it seems to me that is ignoring their wrongs rather than forgiving them for having done them, and in part I believe that because those who hold the view that all people automatically deserve forgiveness for their wrong acts do not actually believe that in ordinary cases.  I will come back to this shortly, but first a small digression to help me illustrate the point that forgiveness is not a simple concept, certainly not as simple as it is often portrayed. 

In Book V, Chapter IV, "Rebellion", of The Brothers Karamazov, Fyodor Dostoevsky passionately and eloquently makes the case that no one, not even God, can or should forgive a person for a harm that person did to another -- that one can only forgive a person for a harm that person did to oneself.  One of his examples is the brutal murder of an infant in its mother's arms, about which he says that even if the mother could find some kind of forgiveness in her heart for the murderer, at best she only has the ability or the right to forgive him for the suffering he has caused her by the act, not the harm and suffering he did to the baby.  This view is also presented in Judaism, during the "ten days of penitence (or repentance)" from Rosh Hashonah through Yom Kippur, where it is pointed out that God can only forgive you for sins you have done against Him, not those you have committed against other people, and that to be forgiven for those sins, you must seek forgiveness from those whom you wronged. That leads to a number of questions: 1) Is it true or not one cannot be forgiven by a third party instead of by the person you have wronged? Why or why not? 2) Are there criteria that are individually necessary and jointly sufficient for someone to deserve forgiveness or that make it right to forgive someone, or is forgiveness just up to anyone to forgive another for any reason s/he decides or any way s/he feels? 3) Is there any way a person who has murdered an innocent person can deserve forgiveness, if forgiveness is something that has criteria that can make it deserved?  Why or why not?  4) If you choose not to let another person's wrong or terrible actions "consume you" or "eat you up with venom and anger" and keep you in a state of anger or frustration, but instead you choose to put it out of your mind and "go on with your life", is that to "forgive" the person?  Why or why not?  5) If out of a sense of love for all other human beings, you immediately say you forgive someone who has wronged you, even terribly, is that actually forgiving them?  Why or why not?

To try to make these questions easier for my students, I ask them to consider a fairly easy, non-emotional kind of case, as I think one should generally begin many kinds of inquiries (whether ethical, mathematical, scientific, etc.) and see whether they can figure out what one should do to deserve forgiveness and then try to generalize from there.  The case is: your dog gets out of your yard and goes into the neighbor's yard and poops on his driveway and tears up some of his flowers in a flower bed.  Assuming, what seems reasonable, that you are at least to some extent responsible for your dog's doing this because you did not have it secure or well-trained (which would not be true if someone else broke into your reasonably secure house or yard and put the dog in your neighbor's yard, gave it a fast-acting laxative, and put some sort of rabbit scent in the soil of the flower bed, etc.), what do you need to do in order to deserve forgiveness for it?  There are at least four things.  What are they?  Generalize then about any wrongdoing.  And, can a different neighbor forgive you for what your dog did to this neighbor's yard?  Why or why not?

Many or most of my students, generally having been raised as Christians, almost universally try to begin by talking about what they believe is the Christian view of forgiveness, combined with a conventional, contemporary psychological view of it -- that one should always be forgiving because 1) Christ died for our sins so that we all (including wrongdoers in any particular case) can thus be absolved of them, 2) Christ commanded us to love our fellow human beings, including wrongdoers, and 3) the point of forgiveness is to help the victim (or loved one of the victim, or the observer) of the wrong overcome his/her bitterness, resentment, hatred of the wrongdoer so that it doesn't further do more harm to them by 'eating at them' or festering and so that he can love others as commanded.  They further say that forgiveness is always a gift from the victim or the observer to the perpetrator, just as God's grace for sinners is, and that third party forgiveness, particularly by God is possible -- but then they do not apply any of these ideas when they discuss the dog case, because they say the dog owner does need to do specific things in order to deserve forgiveness, and that if he does those things, he then deserves forgiveness and you should forgive him. 

You, as the dog owner, they say correctly, have to 1) sincerely apologize to the neighbor, 2) actually have remorse or regret (in the sense of being sorry) it happened, 3) clean up the mess and plant new flowers for him, and 4) try to make your own fence more secure, etc. so your dog is not likely to be able  get loose again like that.  In short, you need in general, whenever possible to: 1) have remorse, 2) express that remorse as a genuine statement of regret and apology, 3) make restitution (where possible), and 4) make a serious and reasonable attempt at rehabilitation to prevent further recurrence (even if you are unsuccessful, since one cannot totally guarantee the dog can never escape again). 

But surely, if their general Christian and psychology views with which they began were what they believed about forgiveness, they should believe that you, the dog owner, would not need to do anything other than to gently remind the neighbor (or have someone else gently remind the neighbor) whose yard your dog harmed that both for his own peace of mind and as a Christian, he should just forgive you and not be upset over any wrong done to him, perhaps particular such small wrongs as this one.  Essentially just let him know, or have a friend of his or some other third party he trusts let him know, that he should just 'suck this up' or 'walk it off' and get over it and be more tolerant and loving, and that holding a grudge will only harm him and not do any good, and Christ has already atoned for your sin, so no more needs to be done. 

But the New Testament requires at least a claim of repentance for his action by the wrongdoer, though it has seemingly conflicting comments about whether that claim of repentance needs to be honest and sincere.  Stressing actual repentance are Luke 15:10  "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth" and Luke 17:3 "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."  But Luke 17:4 seems only to require a statement or claim of repentance: "And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."  Luke 17:4 just seems to require saying one repents, as opposed to actually repenting.  That strikes me as odd, particularly repeatedly doing wrong after saying one was sorry the first time or two.  Repeated wrongdoing after saying one repents strikes me as a hollow, insincere claim of repentance, unless possibly "trespass" means "errs", which could include mistakes, and the person is unfamiliar with the work and keeps making different errors out of excusable ignorance.  If that were the case, it would possibly be reasonable to keep excusing the person, but in my terminology, that would not be about forgiving him or her, since they are not to blame in the first place for their ignorance, and their continued apologies shows they have good intentions and mean well -- that they are deserving people. But people who actually repent their errors are also considered to be deserving, as pointed out in the following: Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.  Luke 15:10 "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth."  So it is not clear that Christianity requires automatic forgiveness without the wrongdoer's doing something to deserve it.

Some of my students in an onground ethics course challenged some of the ideas I presented above, and the following is my description of their objections and my responses to them:
I thought more about our discussion of forgiveness (beyond what I have already said about that), particularly in regard to 1) Sydney’s objection about my criteria taking away the power of the victim to be the one to forgive and putting in the hands of the perpetrator, 2) Katie’s objection that it was not the Christian view of forgiveness, and 3) Alex’s objection, in part supporting Katie’s, that there were different meaning of forgiveness for different people.

First Alex’s.  Words in a common language cannot mean just anything people want them to.  To say “I forgive you” doesn’t mean, for example, “This elevator goes really fast.”  The question is what the concept of forgiveness implies or means, and how much variation there can be in it, and a different question -- the one I was asking and trying to answer -- whether there are criteria for deserving forgiveness and what they might be. 

Now it seems to me that a minimal meaning of forgiving someone is holding that although they did something wrong for which they had no excuse or mitigating factor, they no longer deserve punishment because they have done something to ‘make the situation right in some way’ or that they have done something to make up somehow for the wrong they did.  If an act is not wrong to begin with, forgiveness does not apply.  It would be a joke to tell someone who does you a favor or is very good to you “I forgive you” just as it is a joke to tell someone you ‘blame’ them for giving you a great life, as in responding to someone who says you have a great marriage “That is my wife’s fault” in order to give her all the credit but in a humorous way.  And if someone has a legitimate excuse for doing something wrong, as in running a stop sign that is hidden by trees, they also should not be punished, and they don’t need forgiveness.  They are excused for their wrong act, not forgiven for it.  Forgiveness is about reaction of a certain sort to a perpetrator of a wrong act s/he committed without legitimate excuse.

 As stated previously, the normally proper response to someone who does a wrong act without excuse would be that s/he deserves punishment, and the reason I gave for that was in order to penalize the person to redress the imbalance of undeserved evil s/he caused and undeserved benefit s/he gained and to make him/her at least partially share in (if not fully bear) all the burdens and harms done by his/her act -- including pain and suffering, torment and agony, and labor and opportunity costs, etc. of resources used in investigating the wrong, pursuit of the perpetrator, future security, etc.  Forgiveness wipes out penalizing or punishing the person any further, probably because s/he has suffered enough for any part of the wrong, including any part s/he has not redressed or remedied.  It is granted because the imbalance has been voluntarily righted by the perpetrator him/herself by his/her making full or sufficient restitution (as possible) and sharing in the suffering.  It removes the need for or point of any (further) punishment.  As Katie accepted, God’s forgiveness involves not consigning the person to eternal damnation for his/her transgression.  If God said He forgave you but was sending you to hell for what you did anyway, that would not be forgiveness.  So in part, there was something wrong or strange about the reaction of the loved ones of the Charleston church killing victims who said they forgave the murderer but wanted him punished to the full extent of the law.  That is one clue that whatever they mean by forgiveness, it is not the normal meaning, and probably has to do with their not being consumed with animosity and anger or bitterness toward the killer but dispassionately and logically think he deserves punishment. But although genuinely forgiving someone may naturally lead to not being consumed by animosity, anger, and bitterness toward them, the reverse is not necessarily true.  Simply not being consumed by those things is not by itself forgiveness.  You can’t just skip the step of genuinely believing they don’t deserve (further) punishment.  If one could take a pill or a really good anger management course in order to psychologically “get past” or overcome one’s anger and bitterness toward the perpetrator by a kind of emotional anesthetic or amnesia, that would not be to forgive them or to achieve the outcome via forgiveness.  It would be achieving that particular outcome a totally different way.  And since the assailant in the Charleston church murders did not even claim to repent before the congregants said they forgave him, he does not even meet the lesser criterion for forgiveness of Luke 17:4.

Now in regard to the question of religion, what I am concerned involves ‘theology’ more than mere religious belief that might be preached from a pulpit.  Theology is systematically developed religious theory and belief for deeper understanding.  It is like philosophy except that it begins with, and accepts the religious beliefs themselves and tries to explain and justify or support them so that people can be sure they correctly understand what God intends and insofar as possible can see why it is reasonable.  Understanding it is important, since if you misunderstand or do not fully understand what God asks of you, you are not likely to do the right thing.   An easy example of the point is the mistaken view many people have that one of the ten commandments is one should not kill another human being.  That is clearly not what God meant, at least at the event at Sinai, because there were actually 613 commandments that God gave then, there is no distinction given in importance between the first ten and the other 603, and some of the 603 others are commandments about punishment, including capital punishment.  Capital punishment is not just allowed, but required in certain cases.  And He delegates man to carry out His will in that regard.  So anyone who claims that it is a sin to execute a murderer because it violates the ten commandments is not understanding the commandment correctly, which is that one should not murder another human being, where murder is the wrongful killing of an innocent person. 

And if one thinks that the New Testament keeps the first ten commandments but not the other 603, then one has to square that somehow with Matthew 5:17ff, where Jesus said He did not come to abolish the laws but to fulfill them, and said “18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” And also clearly Jesus showed that people’s shallow understanding of the commandments was not necessarily what God meant.  In Mark 2:27, he said it did not violate the Sabbath to pick grain to eat because “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

As to Sydney’s view that my criteria put power in the hands of the perpetrator, not the victim, I don’t see that as true in an unqualified way.  I think it is true in a specific sense of forgiveness, if we distinguish between truly believing someone deserves forgiveness and emotionally and psychologically actually feeling forgiveness toward them, feels forgiving of them.  Consider an analogy.  If someone does or offers to do something nice for you that is strictly voluntary on their part and not something necessary, the proper response by you should be “Thank you”, even if it is not a gift you wanted or wanted from them and that receiving doesn't make you feel appreciative or thankful.  If it is appropriate for you to do so, and if you are capable of doing it well, you may say in a kind and tactful way it was not something you want, but you still need to thank them for their offer, effort, and good intention.  And you should still be appreciative of their giving it to you, even if you cannot feel appreciative.  That does not take power away from you; it is just the right thing to do.  People who do what is right are not less powerful or autonomous than people who do what is wrong out of a hardened heart or spiteful will.  But Sydney's contention would be true if we take it to mean no one can rightly force a person to actually be and feel appreciative or thankful.  If the perpetrator can do something to deserve forgiveness, than it does not diminish the victim’s power to be forgiving. But, of course, it is dependent on the victim whether to fully believe and accept psychologically or emotionally "in his or her heart" to feel forgiving, as opposed to believing the person deserves forgiveness or not -- whether the belief and acceptance or whether disbelief and rejection of it are reasonable or not.  Even if one forgives the wrongdoer, that does not require one to be friendly with him or her or to have any sort of cordial or business relationship.  One might avoid contact with the wrongdoer because at the very least it would bring back painful memories.  One can perhaps even still have resentment for the wrongdoer, but truly believe they no longer deserve (further) punishment; but it is just that you can not warm up to them or be friends or anything better than civil.  In other words, the concept of forgiveness can be considered to have both a logical and a psychological component.  The logical component may or may not influence the psychological one, but one cannot be legitimately forced to feel forgiving, even if one ought to believe, and actually even does believe, forgiveness is deserved.  What the perpetrator does may require his/her victim logically to accept they should not be further punished, but it cannot require the victim to feel forgiving, particularly in a loving or friendly sense or way.

Moreover, while Dostoevsky's claim is that only the victim has the right to forgive, that doesn't mean the victim therefore always has the right to bestow forgiveness.  It is common, for example, for women and children who are violently abused by their husband or father (or children who are violently abused by either parent) to be too charitable toward the abuser and/or too ready to blame themselves and too accepting of harm as some sort of deserved punishments for their own behaviors or emotions and attitudes.  So even if the abused spouse or children are forgiving, that doesn't mean the state should not punish the abuser for what he has done to the victims.  So even if Dostoevsky is correct that the victim's consent is necessary for forgiveness to be right, that does not mean the victim's consent to forgive is sufficient for it to be right.  And oppositely, in cases where the abuser does logically deserve forgiveness, the victim's withholding of consent to it is not sufficient for the state not to grant it, even though the state cannot control the victim's granting or withholding psychological forgiveness.

Sydney’s view of not allowing anything the perpetrator does to possibly even count toward logically deserving and requiring forgiveness (as opposed to being given it by the victim emotionally and psychologically) is the total opposite logic of the Charleston people’s view of granting immediate ‘forgiveness’ toward a perpetrator of wrong without his having to do anything.    Both views seem wrong although I can give three kinds of scenarios where Sydney’s view would not be totally mistaken.  But the first is because forgiveness can never be deserved for some acts, and the second is that it can never be known by other people to be deserved, even if it is deserved.

The first case where Sydney’s view would be right is where the wrong done is so clearly heinous and malicious that nothing can “make it right” or in any way understandable how anyone with a shred of understanding or decency could do it.  Nothing can repair the damage or explain how someone could be genuinely remorseful afterward without being sufficiently mindful not to do it in the first place.  It is a wrong so bad that it is impossible to make up for it, at least to the loved ones of the victims, if not to everyone.  On my criteria that is a case where restitution cannot be sufficiently made.  I think that Dostoevsky in part says that is why God should not forgive some wrongs (even if it were logically possible for Him or any third party to grant forgiveness), particularly, but not only, where the perpetrator is not even sorry. I do not know whether the crimes Dostoevsky recounts in that section of The Brothers Karamazov are real or fictitious ones, but similar crimes occur all too frequently in real life today, even in supposedly 'advanced', civilized countries.  Little children are kidnapped, drugged, raped, beaten and murdered, and their dead bodies desecrated.  Teenagers and adults are also, often being treated in terribly brutal ways that defy the understanding of any civilized and decent person.  Even when there is no torture or desecration involved, mass shootings and stabbings murder innocent, undeserving people randomly when they were simply minding their own business.  As I write this there were two separate incidents in the United States this past weekend, where people were attacked even during religious observances, which seems to be a particularly heinous, disrespectful, irreverent, obscene, inhumane, and indecent act.  At least two of the people attacked died.

The second case where Sydney’s view would be right (and this picks up also on a point of Misty’s) is where it is impossible for us to tell whether the perpetrator is genuinely sorry and actually trying to make up for the wrong or where s/he is simply trying to have their punishment decreased or is trying not to get caught by ‘lying low’.  On my criteria that means we cannot tell whether the perpetrator is genuinely remorseful or not.  Notice, God is attributed not to have this particular problem because supposedly God can see into the perpetrator’s heart and soul to see whether there is true remorse and repentance or not.  (Jeremiah 6:20 "To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.")  And God wants you to do what you do out of love, not out of having to seek forgiveness (Mark 33  "... to love one's neighbour as oneself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.")

Insofar as God is omniscient, as it is claimed, He can see whether someone has repented or not for a wrong s/he did, or whether s/he is just trying to avoid condemnation and punishment.  We humans cannot do that, except sometimes -- particularly those times where the transformation is dramatic and clearly self-motivated when the person had not been caught and was not likely to be caught.  Once the person is caught, it is impossible or at least extremely difficult, to distinguish true remorse from “jailhouse repentance” intended just to get a lighter sentence or to get parole or early release, or to know whether their regret is simply from having been caught and punished rather than out of actual contrition from having committed the wrong and caused harm, extra work, or suffering to others.  To regret having done the wrong thing because one is being punished is not the proper kind of regret for one's wrong act.

The third kind of case is probably closer to what Dostoevsky had in mind: the act harms the victim in ways that are unfathomable to, or unable to be sufficiently felt by, others and that the perpetrator has not yet had sufficient contrition, made sufficient restitution, or suffered enough to adequately share the pain and suffering s/he has caused.  There is a sense in which only the victim feels or experiences the torment it caused him or her (and continues to cause if the victim survives) , and the toll it has taken and continues to take.  Others may perceive the damage it did and/or is continuing to do to the victim, perhaps in some cases even better than the victim does.  But in the sense of perceiving one's feelings directly, only the victim can do that and know when they feel 'restored' and feel 'whole' again in some way (whether they are actually restored or not), given the actions of the wrongdoer in seeking forgiveness.  Insofar as the victim is either overly sensitive to, or is insufficiently aware of, the toll the wrong act took on him or her, s/he could still be too slow to grant deserved forgiveness or too quick to grant undeserved forgiveness.  But that doesn't mean others can say enough has been done to compensate for the felt harm done to him or her.  The best they can say is that s/he ought or ought not to be over the torment by now, not that s/he is or isn't over it.  They can say s/he ought to feel forgiving but not that s/he is able to, or even to believe s/he should feel forgiving.  And even if someone else can do things to help the victim recover their previous state of mind from before the wrong done to them, that doesn't mean the victim can attribute that to the perpetrator's having done enough to restore that state.  If someone steals my car, other people may restore my faith in the goodness of some people by giving me a new car, but that doesn't make me want to forgive or feel forgiving of the thief.  We can know which parts of our joys and sorrows to attribute to which people and events. 

Another way to state this last point is that, as above, it is possible for people to agree about the criteria for logically deserving forgiveness (which is different from being granted forgiveness psychologically/emotionally) while still logically disagreeing about a particular case, because they disagree about whether the criteria have been met in that case. When someone is considering forgiving someone else for a wrong that person did to him or her, s/he can often better determine whether the wrong has been sufficiently remedied or not, or whether the wrongdoer has suffered as much as s/he has, and not require further restitution or further suffering by the perpetrator.  But a third person cannot determine that, particularly if the victim is dead.  The best one can know is that the victim would have said the perpetrator has suffered enough or not.  But that is tenuous.  God, it might be supposed, can ask the dead victim what s/he thinks or can know it directly.  But even then there might be disagreement that the victim is being too enabling or too merciful, just as we can think a living victim is being too enabling or merciful and that the wrongdoer does not deserve mercy or remission of (further) penalty or punishment.   And while it is easy to imagine someone's being too forgiving for being murdered, abused, beaten, molested, or raped, it is difficult to imagine that someone who didn't want to die or be physically or emotionally severely harmed can be too stingy or demanding by withholding forgiveness for such acts.  Even if being murdered gets an innocent person to heaven sooner, they likely would have preferred to wait to take that trip and cannot be blamed for being unforgiving especially of someone unrepentant.   

Slight, but Relevant and Important, Digression: Relationships Among Sacrifice, Suffering, Forgiveness, Punishment, Atonement, and Redemption
Voluntary, uncoerced, unselfish, sacrifice, or risk of sacrifice, unmotivated by mere personal self-gain (including avoidance of punishment) is an outward sign of inward, genuine, honest sincerity for many things such as 1) the desire to end enmity or strife and pursue peaceful harmony, 2) gratitude, 3) appreciation, and/or 4) sincere remorse.  It is not necessarily the only sign (for example, a person's character can be consistently and pervasively truthful, kind, and generous even without any previous rewards or likely expectation of them, or one can be clearly visibly happy to have helped someone else, out of altruistic feelings, compassion, pleasure in the other person's happiness, etc.), and it is not always a sign, since motivations themselves are sometimes able to be hidden from others.  Uncoerced, unselfish, voluntary sacrifice or risk of sacrifice is a sign one is willing, sometimes even happy, to suffer a loss of something of clear value because one has a commitment to something that is good and of greater value (non-material) value, especially to others. 

Voluntary acceptance of sufficient punishment or renunciation of sufficient pleasure or other benefits is potential expiation for a wrong because it is a willing, uncoerced, and empathetic renunciation of undeserved good and a willing and empathetic acceptance of sharing in the misery or suffering one has caused.  The voluntary nature of the sacrifice, however, is lost when such sacrifice becomes ritualized, routine, expected or extorted, or is otherwise forced on the person, or s/he perceives it to be required.  And merely voluntarily giving up something is not a sign of sincerity when what is given up is not really a sacrifice for the person giving it up, or at least is not commensurate with what is gained.  For example, paying someone a pittance for good work they have done that earns you a fortune, is not a sign of appreciation, nor is giving someone flowers a sign of remorse for cheating on them.  Even giving expensive jewelry is not a sign of remorse if it is not taxing for a wealthy person to give it or if it is merely a bribe not to be divorced, deserted, denied sex or anything else desired, nor punished further.

In regard to forgiveness, it is essential that the wrongdoer genuinely feels remorse for the wrong s/he did and either voluntarily imposes a penalty on him/herself or willingly accepts as deserved any reasonable punishment imposed by others.  The penalty one imposes on oneself can be working harder for others, instead of pursuing pleasures for oneself with that time. I would even say that redemption should at minimal require remorse and repaying the loss and all the costs involved with it that one caused, but preferably it requires more than recompense, but giving back even more than what one took away.  That is probably not a distinction usually made except perhaps in sports where someone, say, scores more points later in a game than an error they made earlier costs their team, particularly if the later contribution helps their team win the game.  Normally in sports, if a player helps his or her team score simply an equivalent amount his or her previous error cost them, it is not said s/he redeemed her/himself.  One has to gain contribute more than they cost.  Externally inflicted punishment on someone for a wrong for which they feel no remorse (but only regret being caught and punished) does not constitute sacrifice or "payment" on their part, and is not a sign of expiation.  And forced labor does not earn redemption. Conversely, remorse without restitution or change of heart rehabilitation is not enough to deserve forgiveness.  An apology with no effort to repair harm or damage one has caused, replace what was damaged or make up for what was done, and no serious attempt not to repeat the wrong or let it happen again, is a hollow apology.

There is, I believe, at least one way that punishment can cause or foster empathy for the victim of one's wrong and genuine remorse for having committed the act (or having failed to commit a right act).  That is in the case where one understands the harm one has done another by realizing that the harm one is now having to accept is the kind of thing that would be wrong and terrible to inflict on an innocent person.  Suffering forced punishment merely as a penalty to share in the suffering one caused and/or to prevent ill-gotten, undeserved gain is not the same as suffering forced punishment that causes or allows one to gain empathy for the pain of others and seeing that suffering or pain are not good to inflict on any innocent person, and then being sorry one has done that and wanting not to do it again.  When punishment is inflicted on someone with the successful intention of teaching them its evil for anyone who has to endure it and to spark empathy for the suffering of others, then it can be redemptive; but otherwise it is just a penalty.  If punishment fosters empathy and regret, it has taught a valuable lesson, but if it only teaches a wrongdoer that acts are wrong because one might be punished for doing them if caught, it has not taught the right lesson, even if it does happen to make someone give up wrongdoing merely in order to avoid being caught doing it.

Moreover, punishment is not what it is often said to be -- commonly referred to as "payment of one's debt to society", and it does not necessarily mean that because one has served his/her sentence that s/he does not deserve any further punishment in the same way that forgiveness means one does not deserve any (further) punishment.  If we can reasonably assume that a punishment "should fit" the crime, then saying one deserves forgiveness and should not be further punished, just means that one has done something to earn a reprieve or release from being given the full appropriate punishment, which is not the same as saying one does not deserve further punishment because one has already experienced or suffered the full punishment that is reasonable for the wrong.  In the case of forgiveness, some or all of the normally appropriate punishment is dispensed with.  But in the case of not deserving further punishment because one already has been fully punished, one is not forgiven simply because of that, at least not without repentance for the wrong and acceptance of the punishment as deserved.

As will be explained later, even monetary fines (or forced unpaid labor as a payment) do not necessarily cause sacrifice and are not necessarily a punishment -- in the sense of being punitive or causing any suffering or deserved loss or appropriately meaningful cost to the wrongdoer.  They are particularly neither a sacrifice nor punishment when paid for the wrongdoer by someone else and do not cause wrongdoer remorse or contrition, or instill empathy.   Someone else can pay a fine for your wrongs, but any loss or pain they suffer in doing so does not constitute punishment for them because they were not the wrongdoer.  ("Punishment" is only the proper term when it is a penalty imposed on a person guilty and culpable of the wrongdoing the punishment is for.  If a harm is done to a person other than the wrongdoer, either by mistake or by revenge, as a 'lesson' for others, or as an intentional frame-up, that harm is regrettable and wrong torment, not "punishment".)   And the harm, burden, or cost to the person paying for your misdeed is not a substitute for, the suffering you should have to endure as a personal penalty for your wrong, except in one possible case.  That possible case, however, is itself wrong despite its punishment of you and any suffering it causes you.  By this, I am referring to something such as a case of revenge where someone kills or harms an innocent loved one of yours because you killed or harmed an innocent loved one of theirs, and they want you to suffer as they did.  In that case your loved one "pays the price for your wrongdoing" only in the sense of being made to suffer or incur harm because of it, not in the sense of providing restitution or recompense for your wrongful act or in the sense of making up for it in some way.  Insofar as the person who exacts this kind of revenge on you made you suffer in the way you made them suffer, by inflicting harm on a loved one of yours, they have caused you to share in the sorrows and burdens they have wrought and they have lessened your ill-gotten gains from their act of killing their loved one, but they did it in a wrong way because they harmed an innocent person as a wrongful means to what would otherwise be a rightful purpose or end -- punishing you and making you suffer for your wrongdoing.  But if that only makes you sorry for your loved one and not for your victim, it is a punishment that does not redeem you or let you deserve forgiveness. Similarly if any direct punishment of you only makes you sorry for yourself being punished, and not for the harm and suffering you caused others, that does not redeem you or contribute to your deserving forgiveness.

Returning to Katie’s and Alex’s views, while I cannot speak for them or for God on this, I would think that 1) either a person is not a Christian just because s/he professes or even has a particular belief, or 2) that if s/he is one, s/he does not just deserve mercy because s/he takes the deal just to get salvation and avoid damnation.  Suppose their mindset is “Let me get this straight.  In order to avoid going to hell for all the things I’ve done, all I need to do is believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins.  Well, sure then; I’ll take that deal.  I’ll believe it, especially if my believing it makes it true.  Do you want me to sign something to that effect?  I mean, I’ll sign it.  I don’t want to go to hell.”  Would you call that person a true Christian?  Would you think God would?  Do you think that absolves them from serious punishment?  I would hope you wouldn't think that.  As a missionary I met told me, it is not the proper Christian attitude, spirit, mentality, or understanding to simply declare "We are saved, so party on!"

Or returning to Sydney’s contention about the idea of earning and deserving forgiveness robbing the victim of the power whether to bestow it or not, consider an analogy of forgiving a debt.  Suppose some guy borrows $100 from you or perhaps $10,000.  He needs to repay it.  However, suppose that he saves your life at some risk to his own.  Would it not be ungrateful normally to still make him repay the $100?  Maybe even the full $10,000 (unless perhaps you needed the money and he could easily afford to repay it).  Has he, by saving your life, especially at some risk to his own, not wiped out part of the debt he owes you?  Has he not actually given you (back) more than he owes you, though he did not pay it back in money, but something even more valuable?  Are you not really more in his debt than he is/was in yours?  And does forgiving that part of his monetary debt take away your “power” any more than if he had actually repaid in money that part of the debt?  I wouldn’t think so.

However, insofar as harming someone means you owe them and society from whom your action required assistance and to whom your wrongdoing exposes a threat by yourself or by others that has to be guarded against at some cost, you have incurred obligations to those you have given these burdens.  The debt is not settled until they are repaid and close out the debt, but the debt cannot be settled simply by someone else's payment to them, nor can it be cancelled by someone else on their behalf.  The debt is personal between the two of you.  You owe them sufficient suffering, sacrifice, and contrition that they can absolve you of any further externally inflicted penalty. 

It seems to me that granting forgiveness automatically as perhaps some of the Charleston people did -- if they also thought the perpetrator should not be punished -- is less about being forgiving than it is about believing no act, no matter how wrong deserves punishment.  Perhaps if one believed that all acts are just mistakes or are just excusable, one could believe that.  Or if one believed there are no wrong acts, one could believe that.  But I doubt that any of you believe there are no wrong acts or that all wrong acts are simply mistakes or are immediately excusable.  I certainly don’t believe that or see any reason to believe it.  And I don’t see any reason to think God believes it, or at least that He has always believed it, especially since He stated in the laws given at Sinai what the punishments should be for certain wrong acts.

Finally, it is also possible to believe that although some acts are wrong, or that a particular act is wrong, and the agent is both responsible and blameworthy, that punishment makes matters worse because it is too harsh a response. For example, while it is wrong for someone to break a date by standing you up with no warning or explanation simply because they have changed their mind, that is not, and should not be, a police or court matter.  If it were, that would probably cause more problems than it solves.  (Now I am not talking about avoiding legal procedures, such as getting a restraining order against a stalker, because it will escalate the stalker's anger and bad behavior, but am talking about using law to criminalize behavior that shouldn't be criminalized because the natural consequences of criminalizing it cause greater harm, harm that is unnecessary.  In the case of restraining orders which just anger stalkers and escalate their bad behaviors, the problem is not in criminalizing stalking but making restraining orders an insufficient legal remedy for it and insufficient protection from it.  Stalking should be illegal, but the protections against it need to be more realistic and effective.)  Presumably the idea that punishment is too harsh a response to wrongdoing is the justification for putting young children in 'time out' instead of spanking them or even yelling at them, etc.  However, even "time-out" can be a punishment for some children, it may be 1) insufficient remedy against repeat offenses, and 2) too lenient, and insufficiently punitive or penalizing, for serious offenses. 

The idea is that punishments should be commensurate with the severity of the offense and that worse offenses deserve harsher penalties.  It is relatively easy to rank offenses by order of their severity and to rank punishments by order of their harshness, but it is difficult to know how to line them up with each other in terms of what the gaps should be between offenses and between penalties, and what the floors and ceilings of the penalties should be.  For example, overparking for two hours is worse than overparking for one hour because it hogs the parking space twice as long, but should that mean the fine should be double for doing it twice as long?  And whether or not it is double, should the fine for overparking one hour be $10 or $50 or $500?  $500 seems excessive for one hour parking at an expired meter.  $1000 for two hours seems really excessive.  But both would meet the criteria of a harsher penalty for a greater wrong.  In regard to more serious crimes,  while some people think execution (capital punishment) is too harsh even for murder, other people think it too lenient for particularly heinous murders or other crimes, and that something like ongoing severe torture before execution is more appropriate.  At the other end of the scale, some penalties seem a 'mere slap on the wrist' for a wrong that other people believe deserves a harsher penalty.  For example, if someone rich were to speed for thrills through a residential neighborhood where small children live and play, even if s/he doesn't hit anyone or anything, a fine might be only 'chump change' to them and thus instead of being a deterrent is merely a licensing fee to do it.  Or consider that in Huntsville, Alabama the penalty for driving with an expired license tag, even if inadvertent and even if the tag only recently expired and one was not sent a renewal notice, is more than the penalty for running a red light, even if intentionally and relatively fast (though within the speed limit).  The fine alone for driving with the expired tag is higher, but on top of the fine, there is also a late renewal fee penalty.  To me it seems that 1) running a red light -- particularly intentionally and at great speed (even if within the speed limit) -- is a far more serious offense than inadvertently driving with a recently expired tag and, thus, should have the stronger penalty, and 2) that the fine for speeding is too low while the fine for the expired tag is too high, particularly for poor people, so that even if the fine for speeding was made a few dollars more than the fine for driving with the expired tag, the penalties would still both be incommensurate with the seriousness of the offenses, even though the red light violation would then be more than the expired tag violation.  For penalties to be reasonably punitive, they should not only be serially ranked in the same order as the offenses, but each penalty must be commensurate or appropriate to the seriousness of the offense, taking into account the circumstances of the wrongdoer so that what is very harsh for one person is not just a wrist slap to another.  If the idea is that punishments should exact suffering that is appropriate to the offense, it has to be in some sense proportional to the toll it takes on the wrongdoer, not just the absolute amount, say in dollars.

The point of these last two paragraphs is that withholding punishment that is too harsh or that is strategically problematic (as is criminalizing someone's "standing up" a date or their breaking a date with insufficient justification or a lame excuse) is not the same thing as forgiving.  And it is not the same thing as withholding (further or greater) punishment because forgiveness is deserved.